Theravadan

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From: Pali, Bhikkhus Nyanamoli & Khantipalo , Bhikkhu Sujato

Majjhima Nikāya 56 Middle Discourses 56

Upālisutta With Upāli

Evaṁ me sutaṁ—Thus I heard:So I have heard.

ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā nāḷandāyaṁ viharati pāvārikambavane. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Nālanda in Pavārika’s Mango Grove.At one time the Buddha was staying near Nāḷandā in Pāvārika’s Mango Grove.

Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto nāḷandāyaṁ paṭivasati mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ. Now on that occasion the Nigaṇṭha (Jain) Nātaputta was staying at Nālanda with a large assembly of Nigaṇṭhas.At that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan was residing at Nāḷandā together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.

Atha kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nāḷandāyaṁ piṇḍāya caritvā pacchābhattaṁ piṇḍapātapaṭikkanto yena pāvārikambavanaṁ yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi. Then when the Nigaṇṭha Tall Ascetic (Dīgha Tapassi) had wandered for alms in Nālanda and had returned from his alms-round after the meal, he went to Pavārika’s Mango Grove to see the Blessed One, and exchanged greetings with him,Then the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī wandered for alms in Nāḷandā. After the meal, on his return from almsround, he went to Pāvārika’s Mango Grove. There he approached the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him.

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṁ ṭhitaṁ kho dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ bhagavā etadavoca: and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he stood at one side. When he had done so, the Blessed One said to him:When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he stood to one side. The Buddha said to him,

“saṁvijjanti kho, tapassi, āsanāni; sace ākaṅkhasi nisīdā”ti. ‘There are seats, ascetic, sit down if you like.’“There are seats, Tapassī. Please sit if you wish.”

Evaṁ vutte, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho aññataraṁ nīcaṁ āsanaṁ gahetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. When this was said, the Tall Ascetic took a lower seat and sat down at one side.When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī took a low seat and sat to one side.

Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ bhagavā etadavoca: When he had done so, the Blessed One asked him:The Buddha said to him,

“kati pana, tapassi, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto kammāni paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? ‘Ascetic, how many kinds of kamma does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma?’“Tapassī, how many kinds of deed does the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan describe for performing bad deeds?”

“Na kho, āvuso gotama, āciṇṇaṁ nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa ‘kammaṁ, kamman’ti paññapetuṁ; ‘Friend Gotama, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta is not accustomed to use the description “kamma, kamma”;“Reverend Gotama, the Jain Ñātika doesn’t usually speak in terms of ‘deeds’.

‘daṇḍaṁ, daṇḍan’ti kho, āvuso gotama, āciṇṇaṁ nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa paññapetun”ti. the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta is accustomed to use the description “rod, rod”.’He usually speaks in terms of ‘rods’.”

“Kati pana, tapassi, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto daṇḍāni paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? ‘Then, ascetic, how many kinds of rod does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?’“Then how many kinds of rod does the Jain Ñātika describe for performing bad deeds?”

“Tīṇi kho, āvuso gotama, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto daṇḍāni paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyāti, seyyathidaṁ—‘Friend Gotama, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describes three kinds of rods for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma, that is to say:“The Jain Ñātika describes three kinds of rod for performing bad deeds:

kāyadaṇḍaṁ, vacīdaṇḍaṁ, manodaṇḍan”ti. the bodily rod, the verbal rod, and the mental rod.’the physical rod, the verbal rod, and the mental rod.”

“Kiṁ pana, tapassi, aññadeva kāyadaṇḍaṁ, aññaṁ vacīdaṇḍaṁ, aññaṁ manodaṇḍan”ti? ‘How then, ascetic, is the bodily rod one, the verbal rod another, and mental rod another?’“But are these kinds of rod all distinct from each other?”

“Aññadeva, āvuso gotama, kāyadaṇḍaṁ, aññaṁ vacīdaṇḍaṁ, aññaṁ manodaṇḍan”ti. ‘The bodily rod is one, friend Gotama, the verbal rod is another, and the mental rod is another.’“Yes, each is quite distinct.”

“Imesaṁ pana, tapassi, tiṇṇaṁ daṇḍānaṁ evaṁ paṭivibhattānaṁ evaṁ paṭivisiṭṭhānaṁ katamaṁ daṇḍaṁ nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto mahāsāvajjataraṁ paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, yadi vā kāyadaṇḍaṁ, yadi vā vacīdaṇḍaṁ, yadi vā manodaṇḍan”ti? ‘Of these three kinds of rods, ascetic, thus analysed and distinguished, which kind of rod does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe as the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma: the bodily rod, or the verbal rod, or the mental rod?’“Of the three rods thus analyzed and differentiated, which rod does the Jain Ñātika describe as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds: the physical rod, the verbal rod, or the mental rod?”

“Imesaṁ kho, āvuso gotama, tiṇṇaṁ daṇḍānaṁ evaṁ paṭivibhattānaṁ evaṁ paṭivisiṭṭhānaṁ kāyadaṇḍaṁ nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto mahāsāvajjataraṁ paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍaṁ, no tathā manodaṇḍan”ti. ‘Of these three kinds of rod, friend Gotama, thus analysed and distinguished, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describes the bodily rod as the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma, and not so much the verbal rod, or the mental rod.’“The Jain Ñātika describes the physical rod as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

“Kāyadaṇḍanti, tapassi, vadesi”? ‘Do you say the bodily rod, ascetic?’“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”

“Kāyadaṇḍanti, āvuso gotama, vadāmi”. ‘I say the bodily rod, friend Gotama.’“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”

“Kāyadaṇḍanti, tapassi, vadesi”? ‘Do you say the bodily rod, ascetic?’“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”

“Kāyadaṇḍanti, āvuso gotama, vadāmi”. ‘I say the bodily rod, friend Gotama.’“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”

“Kāyadaṇḍanti, tapassi, vadesi”? ‘Do you say the bodily rod, ascetic?’“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”

“Kāyadaṇḍanti, āvuso gotama, vadāmī”ti. ‘I say the bodily rod, friend Gotama.’“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”

Itiha bhagavā dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ yāvatatiyakaṁ patiṭṭhāpesi. So the Blessed One made the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, maintain his statement up to the third time.Thus the Buddha made Dīgha Tapassī stand by this point up to the third time.

Evaṁ vutte, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, the Tall Ascetic asked the Blessed One:When this was said, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Buddha,

“tvaṁ panāvuso gotama, kati daṇḍāni paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? ‘Friend Gotama, how many kinds of rod do you describe for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma?’“But Reverend Gotama, how many kinds of rod do you describe for performing bad deeds?”

“Na kho, tapassi, āciṇṇaṁ tathāgatassa ‘daṇḍaṁ, daṇḍan’ti paññapetuṁ; ‘Ascetic, a Tathāgata is not accustomed to use the description “rod, rod”;“Tapassī, the Realized One doesn’t usually speak in terms of ‘rods’.

‘kammaṁ, kamman’ti kho, tapassi, āciṇṇaṁ tathāgatassa paññapetun”ti? a Tathāgata is accustomed to use the description “kamma, kamma”.’He usually speaks in terms of ‘deeds’.”

“Tvaṁ panāvuso gotama, kati kammāni paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? ‘But, friend Gotama, how many kinds of kamma do you describe for the performance of evil kammas, for the perpetration of evil kammas?’“Then how many kinds of deed do you describe for performing bad deeds?”

“Tīṇi kho ahaṁ, tapassi, kammāni paññapemi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, seyyathidaṁ—‘Ascetic, I describe three kinds of kammas for the performance of evil kammas, for the perpetration of evil kammas, that is to say:“I describe three kinds of deed for performing bad deeds:

kāyakammaṁ, vacīkammaṁ, manokamman”ti. bodily kamma, verbal kamma, and mental kamma.’physical deeds, verbal deeds, and mental deeds.”

“Kiṁ panāvuso gotama, aññadeva kāyakammaṁ, aññaṁ vacīkammaṁ, aññaṁ manokamman”ti? ‘How then, friend Gotama, is bodily kamma one, verbal kamma another, and mental kamma another?’“But are these kinds of deed all distinct from each other?”

“Aññadeva, tapassi, kāyakammaṁ, aññaṁ vacīkammaṁ, aññaṁ manokamman”ti. ‘Bodily kamma is one, ascetic, verbal kamma is another, and mental kamma is another.’“Yes, each is quite distinct.”

“Imesaṁ panāvuso gotama, tiṇṇaṁ kammānaṁ evaṁ paṭivibhattānaṁ evaṁ paṭivisiṭṭhānaṁ katamaṁ kammaṁ mahāsāvajjataraṁ paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, yadi vā kāyakammaṁ, yadi vā vacīkammaṁ, yadi vā manokamman”ti? ‘Of these three kinds of kamma, friend Gotama, thus analyzed and distinguished, which kind of kamma do you describe as the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma: bodily kamma or verbal kamma or mental kamma?’“Of the three deeds thus analyzed and differentiated, which deed do you describe as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds: physical deeds, verbal deeds, or mental deeds?”

“Imesaṁ kho ahaṁ, tapassi, tiṇṇaṁ kammānaṁ evaṁ paṭivibhattānaṁ evaṁ paṭivisiṭṭhānaṁ manokammaṁ mahāsāvajjataraṁ paññapemi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā kāyakammaṁ, no tathā vacīkamman”ti. ‘Of these three kinds of kamma, ascetic, thus analyzed and distinguished, I describe mental kamma as the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma, and not so much bodily kamma or verbal kamma.’“I describe mental deeds as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much physical deeds or verbal deeds.”

“Manokammanti, āvuso gotama, vadesi”? ‘Do you say mental kamma, friend Gotama?’“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”

“Manokammanti, tapassi, vadāmi”. ‘I say mental kamma, ascetic.’“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”

“Manokammanti, āvuso gotama, vadesi”? ‘Do you say mental kamma, friend Gotama?’“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”

“Manokammanti, tapassi, vadāmi”. ‘I say mental kamma, ascetic.’“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”

“Manokammanti, āvuso gotama, vadesi”? ‘Do you say mental kamma, friend Gotama?’“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”

“Manokammanti, tapassi, vadāmī”ti. ‘I say mental kamma, ascetic.’“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”

Itiha dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho bhagavantaṁ imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ yāvatatiyakaṁ patiṭṭhāpetvā uṭṭhāyāsanā yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami. So the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, made the Blessed One maintain his statement up to the third time, after which he rose from his seat and went to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta.Thus the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī made the Buddha stand by this point up to the third time, after which he rose from his seat and went to see the Jain Ñātika.

Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto mahatiyā gihiparisāya saddhiṁ nisinno hoti bālakiniyā parisāya upālipamukhāya. Now on that occasion the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta was seated together with a very large assembly of laymen from Bālaka, most prominent among them being Upāli.Now at that time the Jain Ñātika was sitting together with a large assembly of Bālaki laypeople headed by Upāli.

Addasā kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ; The Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta saw the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, coming;The Jain Ñātika saw Dīgha Tapassī coming off in the distance

disvāna dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ etadavoca: and when he saw him he asked him:and said to him,

“handa kuto nu tvaṁ, tapassi, āgacchasi divā divassā”ti? ‘Now where are you coming from in broad day, Ascetic?’“So, Tapassī, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?”

“Ito hi kho ahaṁ, bhante, āgacchāmi samaṇassa gotamassa santikā”ti. ‘I have come from the monk Gotama’s presence, venerable sir.’“Just now, sir, I’ve come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.”

“Ahu pana te, tapassi, samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti? ‘Did you have some conversation with the monk Gotama, Ascetic?’“But did you have some discussion with him?”

“Ahu kho me, bhante, samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti. ‘I had some conversation with the monk Gotama, venerable sir.’“I did.”

“Yathā kathaṁ pana te, tapassi, ahu samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti? ‘How was your conversation with the monk Gotama, then, Ascetic?’“And what kind of discussion did you have with him?”

Atha kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho yāvatako ahosi bhagavatā saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo taṁ sabbaṁ nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa ārocesi. Then the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, related to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta all his conversation with the Blessed One.Then Dīgha Tapassī informed the Jain Ñātika of all they had discussed.

Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ etadavoca: When this was said the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta told him:When he had spoken, the Jain Ñātika said to him,

“sādhu sādhu, tapassi. ‘Good, good, (on the part of the) Ascetic:“Good, good, Tapassī!

Yathā taṁ sutavatā sāvakena sammadeva satthusāsanaṁ ājānantena evameva dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena samaṇassa gotamassa byākataṁ. As by a well-taught disciple who knows his teacher’s Dispensation rightly, so it has been declared by the Tall Ascetic to the monk Gotama!The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.

Kiñhi sobhati chavo manodaṇḍo imassa evaṁ oḷārikassa kāyadaṇḍassa upanidhāya. What does the trivial mental rod count in comparison with the gross bodily rod?For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?

Atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo”ti. On the contrary, the bodily rod is the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma, and not so much the verbal rod and the mental rod.’Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

Evaṁ vutte, upāli gahapati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, the householder Upāli said to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta:When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him,

“sādhu sādhu, bhante dīghatapassī. Good, good, venerable sir, (on the part of) the Tall Ascetic: “Good, sir! Well done, Dīgha Tapassī!

Yathā taṁ sutavatā sāvakena sammadeva satthusāsanaṁ ājānantena evamevaṁ bhadantena tapassinā samaṇassa gotamassa byākataṁ. As by a well-taught disciple who knows his teacher’s Dispensation rightly, so it has been declared by the venerable Ascetic to the monk Gotama: The Honorable Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.

Kiñhi sobhati chavo manodaṇḍo imassa evaṁ oḷārikassa kāyadaṇḍassa upanidhāya. “What does the trivial mental rod count for in comparison with the gross bodily rod? For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?

Atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo. On the contrary, the bodily rod is the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma for the perpetration of evil kamma, and not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.” Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.

Handa cāhaṁ, bhante, gacchāmi samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropessāmi. Now, venerable sir, I shall go and prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong on the basis of this statement. I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine regarding this point.

Sace me samaṇo gotamo tathā patiṭṭhahissati yathā bhadantena tapassinā patiṭṭhāpitaṁ; seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso dīghalomikaṁ eḷakaṁ lomesu gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi. If the monk Gotama maintains to me as he has been made to maintain by the venerable Tall Ascetic, I shall drag the monk Gotama to and fro and round about with argument as a strong man might seize a long-haired ram by the hair and drag him to and fro and round about. If he stands by the position that he stated to Dīgha Tapassī, I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about!

Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikākammakāro mahantaṁ soṇḍikākilañjaṁ gambhīre udakarahade pakkhipitvā kaṇṇe gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi. I will drag the monk Gotama to and fro and round about with argument as a strong brewer’s workman might throw a big brewer’s seive into a deep water tank, and taking it by the corners, drag it to and fro and round about. Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about!

Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikādhutto vālaṁ kaṇṇe gahetvā odhuneyya niddhuneyya nipphoṭeyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ odhunissāmi niddhunissāmi nipphoṭessāmi. I will shake the monk Gotama down and shake him up and thump him about with argument as a strong brewer’s mixer might take a strainer by the corners and shake it down and shake it up and thump it about. Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating!

Seyyathāpi nāma kuñjaro saṭṭhihāyano gambhīraṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā sāṇadhovikaṁ nāma kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷati; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ sāṇadhovikaṁ maññe kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷissāmi. And just as a sixty-year old elephant might go down into a pond and have great sport in the game of hemp-washing, so too, I shall have great sport, I fancy, in the game of hemp-washing the monk Gotama! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing!

Handa cāhaṁ, bhante, gacchāmi samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropessāmī”ti. Venerable sir, I shall go and prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong on the basis of this statement.’Sir, I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.”

“Gaccha tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropehi. ‘Go, householder, and prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong on the basis of this statement; “Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.

Ahaṁ vā hi, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyyaṁ, dīghatapassī vā nigaṇṭho, tvaṁ vā”ti. for either I should prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong, or else the Tall Ascetic or you yourself.’For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

Evaṁ vutte, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, said to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta: When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,

“na kho metaṁ, bhante, ruccati yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyya. ‘Venerable sir, I should prefer that the householder Upāli did not (try to) prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong; “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.

Samaṇo hi, bhante, gotamo māyāvī āvaṭṭaniṁ māyaṁ jānāti yāya aññatitthiyānaṁ sāvake āvaṭṭetī”ti. for the monk Gotama is a magician and he knows a converting magic by which he converts disciples of other sectarians.’For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.”

“Aṭṭhānaṁ kho etaṁ, tapassi, anavakāso yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya. ‘It is impossible, ascetic, it cannot happen, that the householder Upāli should go over to the monk Gotama’s discipleship; “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.

Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ samaṇo gotamo upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya. but it is possible, it can happen, that the monk Gotama should come over to the householder Upāli’s discipleship. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.

Gaccha tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropehi. Go, householder, and prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong; Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.

Ahaṁ vā hi, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyyaṁ, dīghatapassī vā nigaṇṭho, tvaṁ vā”ti. for either I should prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong or else the Tall Ascetic or you yourself.’For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

Dutiyampi kho dīghatapassī …pe… For the second time, the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, said to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta: ‘Venerable sir, I should prefer that the householder Upāli did not (try to) prove...’ ‘It is impossible, ascetic, it cannot happen...’For a second time …

tatiyampi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: For the third time, the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, said to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta: and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,

“Aṭṭhānaṁ kho etaṁ, tapassi, anavakāso yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya. ‘It is impossible, ascetic, it cannot happen that the householder Upāli should go over to the monk Gotama’s discipleship... “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.

Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ samaṇo gotamo upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.

Gaccha tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropehi. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.

Ahaṁ vā hi, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyyaṁ, dīghatapassī vā nigaṇṭho, tvaṁ vā”ti. else the Tall Ascetic or you yourself.’For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho upāli gahapati nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa paṭissutvā uṭṭhāyāsanā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā yena pāvārikambavanaṁ yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho upāli gahapati bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: ‘Yes, venerable sir,’ the householder Upāli replied, and he rose from his seat, and after paying homage to him, keeping him on his right, he left to go to the Blessed One in Pavārika’s Mango Grove, and there, after paying homage to the Blessed One, he sat down at one side. When he had done so, he asked the Blessed One: “Yes, sir,” replied the householder Upāli to the Jain Ñātika. He rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right. Then he went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him,

“āgamā nu khvidha, bhante, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho”ti? ‘Venerable sir, did the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, come here?’“Sir, did the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī come here?”

“Āgamā khvidha, gahapati, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho”ti. ‘The Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, came here, householder.’“He did, householder.”

“Ahu kho pana te, bhante, dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti? ‘Venerable sir, did you have some conversation with him?’“But did you have some discussion with him?”

“Ahu kho me, gahapati, dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti. ‘I had some conversation with him, householder.’“I did.”

“Yathā kathaṁ pana te, bhante, ahu dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti? ‘How was your conversation with him, then, venerable sir?’“And what kind of discussion did you have with him?”

Atha kho bhagavā yāvatako ahosi dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo taṁ sabbaṁ upālissa gahapatissa ārocesi. Then the Blessed One related to the householder Upāli all his conversation with the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic.Then the Buddha informed Upāli of all they had discussed.

Evaṁ vutte, upāli gahapati bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, the householder Upāli said to the Blessed One:When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him,

“sādhu sādhu, bhante tapassī. ‘Good, good, venerable sir, (on the part of) the Tall Ascetic:“Good, sir, well done by Tapassī!

Yathā taṁ sutavatā sāvakena sammadeva satthusāsanaṁ ājānantena evamevaṁ dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena bhagavato byākataṁ. as by a well-taught disciple who knows his teacher’s Dispensation rightly, so it has been declared by the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, to the Blessed One!The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.

Kiñhi sobhati chavo manodaṇḍo imassa evaṁ oḷārikassa kāyadaṇḍassa upanidhāya? What does the trivial mental rod count for in comparison with the gross bodily rod?For how impressive is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?

Atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo”ti. On the contrary, the bodily rod is the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma, and not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.’Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

“Sace kho tvaṁ, gahapati, sacce patiṭṭhāya manteyyāsi siyā no ettha kathāsallāpo”ti. ‘Householder, if you will debate on the basis of truth, we might have some conversation about this.’“Householder, so long as you debate on the basis of truth, we can have some discussion about this.”

“Sacce ahaṁ, bhante, patiṭṭhāya mantessāmi; ‘I will debate on the basis of truth, venerable sir,“I will debate on the basis of truth, sir.

hotu no ettha kathāsallāpo”ti. so let us have some conversation about this.’Let us have some discussion about this.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, ‘How do you conceive this, householder,“What do you think, householder?

idhassa nigaṇṭho ābādhiko dukkhito bāḷhagilāno sītodakapaṭikkhitto uṇhodakapaṭisevī. here some Nigaṇṭha might be afflicted, suffering and gravely ill (of an illness needing treatment by cold water which his vows prohibit) and he might refuse cold water (though mentally longing for it) and use only (the permissible) hot water (thus keeping his vows bodily and verbally),Take a Jain ascetic who is sick, suffering, gravely ill. They turn down cold water and use only hot water.

So sītodakaṁ alabhamāno kālaṁ kareyya. and through getting no cold water he might die.Not getting cold water, they might die.

Imassa pana, gahapati, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto katthūpapattiṁ paññapetī”ti? Now, householder, where would the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe his reappearance (as taking place)?’Now, where does the Jain Ñātika say they would be reborn?”

“Atthi, bhante, manosattā nāma devā tattha so upapajjati”. ‘Venerable sir, there are gods called “mind-bound”; he would be reborn there.“Sir, there are gods called ‘mind-bound’. They would be reborn there.

“Taṁ kissa hetu”? Why is that?Why is that?

“Asu hi, bhante, manopaṭibaddho kālaṁ karotī”ti. Because he died still bound (by attachment) in the mind.’Because they died with mental attachment.”

“Manasi karohi, gahapati, manasi karitvā kho, gahapati, byākarohi. ‘Householder, householder, pay attention how you reply.“Think about it, householder! You should think before answering.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before does not agree with what you said after, or what you said after with what you said before.What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Bhāsitā kho pana te, gahapati, esā vācā: Yet you made this statement:But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

‘sacce ahaṁ, bhante, patiṭṭhāya mantessāmi, “I will debate on the basis of truth, venerable sir,

hotu no ettha kathāsallāpo’”ti. so let us have some conversation about this.”’

“Kiñcāpi, bhante, bhagavā evamāha, atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo”ti. ‘Venerable sir, although the Blessed One has spoken thus, yet the bodily rod is the most reprehensible for the performance of evil kamma, for the perpetration of evil kamma.’“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, ‘How do you conceive this, householder,“What do you think, householder?

idhassa nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto cātuyāmasaṁvarasaṁvuto sabbavārivārito sabbavāriyutto sabbavāridhuto sabbavāriphuṭo. here some Nigaṇṭha might be restrained with the four checks, curbed by all curbs, clamped by all curbs, cleansed by all curbs, and claimed by all curbs,Take a Jain ascetic who is restrained in the fourfold constraint, is restrained in all that is to be restrained, is bridled in all that is to be restrained, has shaken off evil in all that is to be restrained, and is curbed in all that is to be restrained.

So abhikkamanto paṭikkamanto bahū khuddake pāṇe saṅghātaṁ āpādeti. and yet when moving forward and moving backward he is involved in the destruction of many a small living being.When going out and coming back they injure many little creatures.

Imassa pana, gahapati, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto kaṁ vipākaṁ paññapetī”ti? What ripening does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe for him?’Now, what result does the Jain Ñātika say they would incur?”

“Asañcetanikaṁ, bhante, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto no mahāsāvajjaṁ paññapetī”ti. ‘Venerable sir, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta does not describe as greatly reprehensible what is not willed.’“Sir, the Jain Ñātika says that unintentional acts are not very blameworthy.”

“Sace pana, gahapati, cetetī”ti? ‘But if he willed it, householder?’“But if they are intentional?”

“Mahāsāvajjaṁ, bhante, hotī”ti. ‘Then it is greatly reprehensible, venerable sir.’“Then they are very blameworthy.”

“Cetanaṁ pana, gahapati, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto kismiṁ paññapetī”ti? ‘But under which (of the three rods) does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe willing, householder?’“But where does the Jain Ñātika say that intention is classified?”

“Manodaṇḍasmiṁ, bhante”ti. ‘Under the mental rod, venerable sir.’“In the mental rod, sir.”

“Manasi karohi, gahapati, manasi karitvā kho, gahapati, byākarohi. ‘Householder, pay attention how you reply.“Think about it, householder! You should think before answering.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before does not agree with what you said after …’What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Bhāsitā kho pana te, gahapati, esā vācā: But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

‘sacce ahaṁ, bhante, patiṭṭhāya mantessāmi;

hotu no ettha kathāsallāpo’”ti.

“Kiñcāpi, bhante, bhagavā evamāha, atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo”ti. ‘Venerable sir, although the Blessed One has spoken thus, yet the bodily rod is the most reprehensible …’“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, ‘How do you conceive this, householder,“What do you think, householder?

ayaṁ nāḷandā iddhā ceva phītā ca bahujanā ākiṇṇamanussā”ti? is this (town of) Nālanda successful and prosperous, is it populous and crowded with people?’Is this Nāḷandā successful and prosperous, populous and full of people?”

“Evaṁ, bhante, ayaṁ nāḷandā iddhā ceva phītā ca bahujanā ākiṇṇamanussā”ti. ‘Yes, venerable sir, it is.’“Indeed it is, sir.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, ‘How do you conceive this, householder,“What do you think, householder?

idha puriso āgaccheyya ukkhittāsiko. suppose a man came here brandishing a swordSuppose a man were to come along with a drawn sword

So evaṁ vadeyya: and spoke thus:and say:

‘ahaṁ yāvatikā imissā nāḷandāya pāṇā te ekena khaṇena ekena muhuttena ekaṁ maṁsakhalaṁ ekaṁ maṁsapuñjaṁ karissāmī’ti. “In one moment, in one instant I will make as many living beings as there are in this (town of) Nālanda into one mash of meat, into one heap of meat”,‘In one hour I will reduce all the living creatures within the bounds of Nāḷandā to one heap and mass of flesh!’

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, how do you conceive this, householder,What do you think, householder?

pahoti nu kho so puriso yāvatikā imissā nāḷandāya pāṇā te ekena khaṇena ekena muhuttena ekaṁ maṁsakhalaṁ ekaṁ maṁsapuñjaṁ kātun”ti? would that man be able to do that?’Could he do that?”

“Dasapi, bhante, purisā, vīsampi, bhante, purisā, tiṁsampi, bhante, purisā, cattārīsampi, bhante, purisā, paññāsampi, bhante, purisā nappahonti yāvatikā imissā nāḷandāya pāṇā te ekena khaṇena ekena muhuttena ekaṁ maṁsakhalaṁ ekaṁ maṁsapuñjaṁ kātuṁ. ‘Venerable sir, ten men, or twenty, forty or even fifty men would not be able to do that,“Sir, even ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty men couldn’t do that.

Kiñhi sobhati eko chavo puriso”ti. so what does a single trivial man count for?’How impressive is one measly man?”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, ‘How do you conceive this, householder,“What do you think, householder?

idha āgaccheyya samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā iddhimā cetovasippatto. suppose some monk or divine came here possessed of supernormal success and attained to mastery of mind,Suppose an ascetic or brahmin with psychic power, who has achieved mastery of the mind, were to come along

So evaṁ vadeyya: and he spoke thus:and say:

‘ahaṁ imaṁ nāḷandaṁ ekena manopadosena bhasmaṁ karissāmī’ti. “I will reduce this (town of) Nālanda to ashes with one mental act of hate”,‘I will reduce Nāḷandā to ashes with a single malevolent act of will!’

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, how do you conceive this, householder,What do you think, householder?

pahoti nu kho so samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā iddhimā cetovasippatto imaṁ nāḷandaṁ ekena manopadosena bhasmaṁ kātun”ti? would such a monk or divine be able to do that?’Could he do that?”

“Dasapi, bhante, nāḷandā, vīsampi nāḷandā, tiṁsampi nāḷandā, cattārīsampi nāḷandā, paññāsampi nāḷandā pahoti so samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā iddhimā cetovasippatto ekena manopadosena bhasmaṁ kātuṁ. ‘Venerable sir, such a monk or divine would be able to do that to ten Nālandas, or to twenty, thirty, forty or fifty Nālandas,“Sir, an ascetic or brahmin with psychic power, who has achieved mastery of the mind, could reduce ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty Nāḷandās to ashes with a single malevolent act of will.

Kiñhi sobhati ekā chavā nāḷandā”ti. so what does a single trivial Nālanda count for?’How significant is one measly Nāḷandā?”

“Manasi karohi, gahapati, manasi karitvā kho, gahapati, byākarohi. ‘Householder, householder, pay attention how you reply. What you said before does not agree with what you said after …’“Think about it, householder! You should think before answering.

Bhāsitā kho pana te, gahapati, esā vācā: But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

‘sacce ahaṁ, bhante, patiṭṭhāya mantessāmi;

hotu no ettha kathāsallāpo’”ti.

“Kiñcāpi, bhante, bhagavā evamāha, atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo”ti. ‘Venerable sir, although the Blessed One has spoken thus, yet the bodily rod is the most reprehensible …’“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, ‘How do you conceive this, householder, “What do you think, householder?

sutaṁ te daṇḍakīraññaṁ kāliṅgāraññaṁ majjhāraññaṁ mātaṅgāraññaṁ araññaṁ araññabhūtan”ti? you have heard how the forests of Daṇḍaka, Kālinga, Mejjha and Mātaṅga are forest and became forest?’Have you heard how the wildernesses of Daṇḍaka, Kaliṅga, Mejjha, and Mātaṅga came to be that way?”

“Evaṁ, bhante, sutaṁ me daṇḍakīraññaṁ kāliṅgāraññaṁ majjhāraññaṁ mātaṅgāraññaṁ araññaṁ araññabhūtan”ti. ‘Yes, venerable sir, I have.’“I have, sir.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, kinti te sutaṁ kena taṁ daṇḍakīraññaṁ kāliṅgāraññaṁ majjhāraññaṁ mātaṅgāraññaṁ araññaṁ araññabhūtan”ti? ‘How do you conceive this, householder, by what means is it that the forests of Daṇḍaka, Kālinga, Mejjha and Mātaṅga are forest and have become forest?’“What have you heard?”

“Sutaṁ metaṁ, bhante, isīnaṁ manopadosena taṁ daṇḍakīraññaṁ kāliṅgāraññaṁ majjhāraññaṁ mātaṅgāraññaṁ araññaṁ araññabhūtan”ti. ‘Venerable sir, I have heard this: “The forests of Daṇḍaka, Kālinga, Majjha and Mātanga are forest and have become forest by means of a mental act of hate on the part of the Sages.”’“I heard that it was because of a malevolent act of will by seers that the wildernesses of Daṇḍaka, Kaliṅga, Mejjha, and Mātaṅga came to be that way.”

“Manasi karohi, gahapati, manasi karitvā kho, gahapati, byākarohi. ‘Householder, householder, pay attention how you reply. “Think about it, householder! You should think before answering.

Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before does not agree with what you said after, or what you said after with what you said before. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.

Bhāsitā kho pana te, gahapati, esā vācā: Yet you made this statement: But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

‘sacce ahaṁ, bhante, patiṭṭhāya mantessāmi; “I will debate on the basis of truth, venerable sir,

hotu no ettha kathāsallāpo’”ti. so let us have some conversation about this”.’

“Purimenevāhaṁ, bhante, opammena bhagavato attamano abhiraddho. ‘Venerable sir, I was satisfied and convinced by the Blessed One’s very first simile; “Sir, I was already delighted and satisfied by the Buddha’s very first simile.

Api cāhaṁ imāni bhagavato vicitrāni pañhapaṭibhānāni sotukāmo, evāhaṁ bhagavantaṁ paccanīkaṁ kātabbaṁ amaññissaṁ. nevertheless I conceived (the thought of) opposing the Blessed One thus since I desired to hear the Blessed One’s varied answers to the question. Nevertheless, I wanted to hear the Buddha’s various solutions to the problem, so I thought I’d oppose you in this way.

Abhikkantaṁ, bhante, abhikkantaṁ, bhante. Magnificent, venerable sir! Magnificent, venerable sir! Excellent, sir! Excellent!

Seyyathāpi, bhante, nikkujjitaṁ vā ukkujjeyya, paṭicchannaṁ vā vivareyya, mūḷhassa vā maggaṁ ācikkheyya, andhakāre vā telapajjotaṁ dhāreyya: ‘cakkhumanto rūpāni dakkhantī’ti; evamevaṁ bhagavatā anekapariyāyena dhammo pakāsito. The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were righting the overthrown, revealing the hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, holding up a lamp in the darkness for those with eyes to see forms. As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with clear eyes can see what’s there, the Buddha has made the teaching clear in many ways.

Esāhaṁ, bhante, bhagavantaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca. Venerable sir, I go to the Blessed One for refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha. I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha.

Upāsakaṁ maṁ bhagavā dhāretu ajjatagge pāṇupetaṁ saraṇaṁ gatan”ti. Let the Blessed One remember me as follower who has gone to him for refuge for life.’From this day forth, may the Buddha remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

“Anuviccakāraṁ kho, gahapati, karohi, anuviccakāro tumhādisānaṁ ñātamanussānaṁ sādhu hotī”ti. ‘Think it over, householder; it is good for such well-known people as you are to think matters over.’“Householder, you should act after careful consideration. It’s good for well-known people such as yourself to act after careful consideration.”

“Imināpāhaṁ, bhante, bhagavato bhiyyoso mattāya attamano abhiraddho yaṁ maṁ bhagavā evamāha: ‘anuviccakāraṁ kho, gahapati, karohi, anuviccakāro tumhādisānaṁ ñātamanussānaṁ sādhu hotī’ti. ‘Venerable sir, I am even more satisfied and convinced by the Blessed One’s telling me that, “Now I’m even more delighted and satisfied with the Buddha, since he tells me to act after careful consideration.

Mañhi, bhante, aññatitthiyā sāvakaṁ labhitvā kevalakappaṁ nāḷandaṁ paṭākaṁ parihareyyuṁ: for the other sectarians, on acquiring me as their disciple, would carry a banner all over Nālanda to the effect that For if the followers of other religions were to gain me as a disciple, they’d carry a banner all over Nāḷandā, saying:

‘upāli amhākaṁ gahapati sāvakattaṁ upagato’ti. “the householder Upāli has come to our discipleship”. ‘The householder Upāli has become our disciple!’

Atha ca pana maṁ bhagavā evamāha: But on the contrary, the Blessed One tells me: And yet the Buddha says:

‘anuviccakāraṁ kho, gahapati, karohi, anuviccakāro tumhādisānaṁ ñātamanussānaṁ sādhu hotī’ti. “Think it over, householder; it is good for such well-known people as you are to think matters over.” ‘Householder, you should act after careful consideration. It’s good for well-known people such as yourself to act after careful consideration.’

Esāhaṁ, bhante, dutiyampi bhagavantaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca. So for the second time, venerable sir, I go to the Blessed One for refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha. For a second time, I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha.

Upāsakaṁ maṁ bhagavā dhāretu ajjatagge pāṇupetaṁ saraṇaṁ gatan”ti. Let the Blessed One remember me as a follower who has gone to him for refuge for life.’From this day forth, may the Buddha remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

“Dīgharattaṁ kho te, gahapati, nigaṇṭhānaṁ opānabhūtaṁ kulaṁ yena nesaṁ upagatānaṁ piṇḍakaṁ dātabbaṁ maññeyyāsī”ti. ‘Householder, your family has long been one supporting the Nigaṇṭhas, and so may you conceive that alms should be given to them when they come.’“For a long time now, householder, your family has been a well-spring of support for the Jain ascetics. You should consider giving to them when they come.”

“Imināpāhaṁ, bhante, bhagavato bhiyyoso mattāya attamano abhiraddho yaṁ maṁ bhagavā evamāha: ‘dīgharattaṁ kho te, gahapati, nigaṇṭhānaṁ opānabhūtaṁ kulaṁ yena nesaṁ upagatānaṁ piṇḍakaṁ dātabbaṁ maññeyyāsī’ti. ‘Venerable sir, I am even more satisfied and convinced by the Blessed One’s telling me that. “Now I’m even more delighted and satisfied with the Buddha, since he tells me to consider giving to the Jain ascetics when they come.

Sutaṁ metaṁ, bhante, samaṇo gotamo evamāha: Venerable sir, I have heard this: “The monk Gotama says thus: I have heard, sir, that the ascetic Gotama says this:

‘mayhameva dānaṁ dātabbaṁ, nāññesaṁ dānaṁ dātabbaṁ; ‘Gifts should be given only to me; gifts should not be given to others. ‘Gifts should only be given to me, not to others.

mayhameva sāvakānaṁ dānaṁ dātabbaṁ, nāññesaṁ sāvakānaṁ dānaṁ dātabbaṁ; Gifts should be given only to my disciples; gifts should not be given to others’ disciples. Gifts should only be given to my disciples, not to the disciples of others.

mayhameva dinnaṁ mahapphalaṁ, nāññesaṁ dinnaṁ mahapphalaṁ; Only what is given to me is very fruitful; not what is given to others. Only what is given to me is very fruitful, not what is given to others.

mayhameva sāvakānaṁ dinnaṁ mahapphalaṁ, nāññesaṁ sāvakānaṁ dinnaṁ mahapphalan’ti. Only what is given to my disciples is very fruitful; not what is given to others’ disciples.’ Only what is given to my disciples is very fruitful, not what is given to the disciples of others.’

Atha ca pana maṁ bhagavā nigaṇṭhesupi dāne samādapeti. But on the contrary, the Blessed One encourages me to give gifts to the Nigaṇṭhas. Yet the Buddha encourages me to give to the Jain ascetics.

Api ca, bhante, mayamettha kālaṁ jānissāma. Anyway we shall know the time for that, venerable sir. Well, sir, we’ll know the proper time for that.

Esāhaṁ, bhante, tatiyampi bhagavantaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca. So for the third time, venerable sir, I go to the Blessed One for refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha. For a third time, I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha.

Atha kho bhagavā upālissa gahapatissa anupubbiṁ kathaṁ kathesi, seyyathidaṁ—Then the Blessed One gave the householder Upāli progressive instruction, that is to say, Then the Buddha taught the householder Upāli step by step, with

dānakathaṁ sīlakathaṁ saggakathaṁ, kāmānaṁ ādīnavaṁ okāraṁ saṅkilesaṁ, nekkhamme ānisaṁsaṁ pakāsesi. talk on giving, on virtue, on the heavens; he explained the danger, the degradation and the defilement in sensual desires, and the blessings in renunciation. a talk on giving, ethical conduct, and heaven. He revealed the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, so sordid and corrupt, and the benefit of renunciation.

Yadā bhagavā aññāsi upāliṁ gahapatiṁ kallacittaṁ muducittaṁ vinīvaraṇacittaṁ udaggacittaṁ pasannacittaṁ, atha yā buddhānaṁ sāmukkaṁsikā dhammadesanā taṁ pakāsesi—When he knew that the householder Upāli’s mind was ready, receptive, free from hindrance, elated and confident, he expounded to him the teaching peculiar to the Enlightened Ones: And when he knew that Upāli’s mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, elated, and confident he revealed the special teaching of the Buddhas:

dukkhaṁ, samudayaṁ, nirodhaṁ, maggaṁ. Suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path.

Seyyathāpi nāma suddhaṁ vatthaṁ apagatakāḷakaṁ sammadeva rajanaṁ paṭiggaṇheyya; Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would take dye evenly, Just as a clean cloth rid of stains would properly absorb dye,

evameva upālissa gahapatissa tasmiṁyeva āsane virajaṁ vītamalaṁ dhammacakkhuṁ udapādi: so too, while the householder Upāli sat there, the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: in that very seat the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Upāli:

“yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman”ti. ‘All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.’ “Everything that is liable to arise is liable to cease.”

Atha kho upāli gahapati diṭṭhadhammo pattadhammo viditadhammo pariyogāḷhadhammo tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: Then the householder Upāli saw and reached and knew and fathomed the Dhamma; he crossed beyond uncertainty, he had done with questioning, gained intrepidity, and became independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation, and then he said to the Blessed One: Then Upāli saw, attained, understood, and fathomed the Dhamma. He went beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and became self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instructions.

“handa ca dāni mayaṁ, bhante, gacchāma, bahukiccā mayaṁ bahukaraṇīyā”ti. ‘Now, venerable sir, we must go; for we are busy and have much to do.’He said to the Buddha, “Well, now, sir, I must go. I have many duties, and much to do.”

“Yassadāni tvaṁ, gahapati, kālaṁ maññasī”ti. ‘Now is the time, householder, to do as you conceive fit.’“Please, householder, go at your convenience.”

Atha kho upāli gahapati bhagavato bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā yena sakaṁ nivesanaṁ tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā dovārikaṁ āmantesi: Then delighting in the Blessed One’s words and agreeing with them the householder Upāli rose from his seat, after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he left to return to his own house. There he addressed the doorkeeper thus: And then the householder Upāli approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. He got up from his seat, bowed and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on his right. Then he went back to his own home, where he addressed the gatekeeper,

“ajjatagge, samma dovārika, āvarāmi dvāraṁ nigaṇṭhānaṁ nigaṇṭhīnaṁ, anāvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ bhagavato bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānaṁ. ‘Good doorkeeper, from today on I close my door to the Nigaṇṭhas and the Nigaṇṭhīs and I open my door to the Blessed One’s bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, laymen followers and laywomen followers. “My good gatekeeper, from this day forth close the gate to Jain monks and nuns, and open it for the Buddha’s monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen.

Sace koci nigaṇṭho āgacchati tamenaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: If any Nigaṇṭha comes, then tell him thus: If any Jain ascetics come, say this to them:

‘tiṭṭha, bhante, mā pāvisi. “Wait, venerable sir, do not enter; ‘Wait, sir, do not enter.

Ajjatagge upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato. from today on the householder Upāli has come over to the Discipleship of the monk Gotama. From now on the householder Upāli has become a disciple of the ascetic Gotama.

Āvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ nigaṇṭhānaṁ nigaṇṭhīnaṁ, anāvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ bhagavato bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānaṁ. He has closed his doors to the Nigaṇṭhas, and he has opened his doors to the Blessed One’s bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, laymen followers and laywomen followers. His gate is closed to Jain monks and nuns, and opened for the Buddha’s monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen.

Sace te, bhante, piṇḍakena attho, ettheva tiṭṭha, ettheva te āharissantī’”ti. Venerable sir, if you have need of alms, wait here; they will bring it to you here.’If you require almsfood, wait here, they will bring it to you.’”

“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho dovāriko upālissa gahapatissa paccassosi. ‘Yes, venerable sir,’ the doorkeeper replied.“Yes, sir,” replied the gatekeeper.

Assosi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho: The Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, heard: Dīgha Tapassī heard that

“upāli kira gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato”ti. ‘The householder Upāli, it seems, has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama.’Upāli had become a disciple of the ascetic Gotama.

Atha kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: Then he went to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta and told him: He went to the Jain Ñātika and said to him,

“sutaṁ metaṁ, bhante, upāli kira gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato”ti. ‘Venerable sir, I have heard thus: “The householder Upāli, it seems, has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama.”’“Sir, they say that the householder Upāli has become a disciple of the ascetic Gotama.”

“Aṭṭhānaṁ kho etaṁ, tapassi, anavakāso yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya. ‘It is impossible, Ascetic, it cannot happen, that the householder Upāli should go over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama; “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.

Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ samaṇo gotamo upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyyā”ti. but it is possible, it can happen, that the monk Gotama might come over to the discipleship of the householder Upāli.’But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.”

Dutiyampi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho …pe… A second time the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, told the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta: ‘Venerable sir, I have heard thus …’For a second time …

tatiyampi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: A third time the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, told the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta …and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,

“sutaṁ metaṁ, bhante … “Sir, they say that the householder Upāli has become a disciple of the ascetic Gotama.”

pe… “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.

upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyyā”ti. ‘It is impossible, Ascetic, it cannot happen …’But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.”

“Handāhaṁ, bhante, gacchāmi yāva jānāmi yadi vā upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato yadi vā no”ti. ‘Venerable sir, shall I go and find out whether he has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama or not?’“Well, sir, I’d better go and find out whether or not Upāli has become Gotama’s disciple.”

“Gaccha tvaṁ, tapassi, jānāhi yadi vā upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato yadi vā no”ti. ‘Go, Ascetic, and find out whether he has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama or not.’“Go, Tapassī, and find out whether or not Upāli has become Gotama’s disciple.”

Atha kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho yena upālissa gahapatissa nivesanaṁ tenupasaṅkami. Then the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, went to the householder Upāli’s house. Then Dīgha Tapassī went to Upāli’s home.

Addasā kho dovāriko dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ. The doorkeeper saw him coming. The gatekeeper saw him coming off in the distance

Disvāna dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ etadavoca: When he saw him, he told him: and said to him,

“tiṭṭha, bhante, mā pāvisi. ‘Wait, venerable sir, do not enter; “Wait, sir, do not enter.

Ajjatagge upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato. from today on the householder Upāli has come over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama. From now on the householder Upāli has become a disciple of the ascetic Gotama.

Āvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ nigaṇṭhānaṁ nigaṇṭhīnaṁ, anāvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ bhagavato bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānaṁ. He has closed his doors to the Nigaṇṭhas and Nigaṇṭhis, and he has opened his doors to the Blessed One’s bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, laymen followers and laywomen followers. His gate is closed to Jain monks and nuns, and opened for the Buddha’s monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen.

Sace te, bhante, piṇḍakena attho, ettheva tiṭṭha, ettheva te āharissantī”ti. Venerable sir, if you have need of alms, wait here; they will bring it to you here.’If you require almsfood, wait here, they will bring it to you.”

“Na me, āvuso, piṇḍakena attho”ti vatvā tato paṭinivattitvā yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: ‘I have no need of alms, friend,’ he said, and he turned back and went to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta and told him: Saying, “No, worthy man, I do not require almsfood,” he turned back and went to the Jain Ñātika and said to him,

“saccaṁyeva kho, bhante, yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato. ‘Venerable sir, it is only too true. The householder Upāli has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama. “Sir, it’s really true that Upāli has become Gotama’s disciple.

Etaṁ kho te ahaṁ, bhante, nālatthaṁ, na kho me, bhante, ruccati yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyya. Venerable sir, I got no (hearing) from you (when I told you): “Venerable sir, I should prefer that the householder Upāli did not (try to) prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong; Sir, I couldn’t get you to accept that it wasn’t a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.

Samaṇo hi, bhante, gotamo māyāvī āvaṭṭaniṁ māyaṁ jānāti yāya aññatitthiyānaṁ sāvake āvaṭṭetīti. for the monk Gotama is a magician, and he knows a converting magic by which he converts disciples of other sectarians.” For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.

Āvaṭṭo kho te, bhante, upāli gahapati samaṇena gotamena āvaṭṭaniyā māyāyā”ti. And now, venerable sir, your householder Upāli has been converted by the monk Gotama with his converting magic !”The householder Upāli has been converted by the ascetic Gotama’s conversion trick!”

Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ samaṇo gotamo upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyyā”ti. but it is possible it could happen, that the monk Gotama might come over to the discipleship of the householder Upāli.’But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.”

Dutiyampi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: A second time the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, told the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta: For a second time …

“saccaṁyeva, bhante …pe… ‘Venerable sir, it is only too true …’

upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyyā”ti. ‘It is impossible, Ascetic …’

Tatiyampi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: A third time the Nigaṇṭha, the Tall Ascetic, told the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta: and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī told the Jain Ñātika

“saccaṁyeva kho, bhante … ‘Venerable sir, it is only too true that the householder Upāli has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama …’that it was really true.

pe… ‘It is impossible, Ascetic, it cannot happen … “It is impossible …

upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyyā”ti. it could happen that the monk Gotama might come over to the discipleship of the householder Upāli.

“Handa cāhaṁ, tapassi, gacchāmi yāva cāhaṁ sāmaṁyeva jānāmi yadi vā upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato yadi vā no”ti. Now I shall go myself and find out whether he has gone over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama or not.’ Well, Tapassī, I’d better go and find out for myself whether or not Upāli has become Gotama’s disciple.”

Atha kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ yena upālissa gahapatissa nivesanaṁ tenupasaṅkami. Then the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta went with a large assembly of Nigaṇṭhas to the householder Upāli’s house. Then the Jain Ñātika went to Upāli’s home together with a large following of Jain ascetics.

Addasā kho dovāriko nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ. The doorkeeper saw him coming. The gatekeeper saw him coming off in the distance

Disvāna nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: When he saw him he told him and said to him:

“tiṭṭha, bhante, mā pāvisi. ‘Wait, venerable sir, do not enter; “Wait, sir, do not enter.

Ajjatagge upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagato. from today the householder Upāli has come over to the discipleship of the monk Gotama. From now on the householder Upāli has become a disciple of the ascetic Gotama.

Āvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ nigaṇṭhānaṁ nigaṇṭhīnaṁ, anāvaṭaṁ dvāraṁ bhagavato bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānaṁ. He has closed his doors to Nigaṇṭhas and Nigaṇṭhīs, and he has opened his doors to the Blessed One’s bhikkhus, bhikkhunīs, laymen followers and laywomen followers. His gate is closed to Jain monks and nuns, and opened for the Buddha’s monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen.

Sace te, bhante, piṇḍakena attho, ettheva tiṭṭha, ettheva te āharissantī”ti. Venerable sir, if you have need of alms, wait here; they will bring it to you here.’ If you require almsfood, wait here, they will bring it to you.”

“Tena hi, samma dovārika, yena upāli gahapati tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā upāliṁ gahapatiṁ evaṁ vadehi: ‘Good doorkeeper, go to the householder Upāli and tell him: “Well then, my good gatekeeper, go to Upāli and say:

‘nigaṇṭho, bhante, nāṭaputto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito; “Venerable sir, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta is standing at the outer gate with a large assembly of Nigaṇṭhas; ‘Sir, the Jain Ñātika is waiting outside the gates together with a large following of Jain ascetics.

so te dassanakāmo’”ti. he wishes to see you”.’ He wishes to see you.’”

“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho dovāriko nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa paṭissutvā yena upāli gahapati tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā upāliṁ gahapatiṁ etadavoca: ‘Yes, venerable sir,’ he replied, and he went to the householder Upāli and told him: “Yes, sir,” replied the gatekeeper. He went to Upāli and relayed what was said.

“nigaṇṭho, bhante, nāṭaputto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito; ‘Venerable sir, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta is standing at the outer gate with a large assembly of Nigaṇṭhas;

so te dassanakāmo”ti. he wishes to see you.’

“Tena hi, samma dovārika, majjhimāya dvārasālāya āsanāni paññapehī”ti. ‘In that case, good doorkeeper, make seats ready in the hall of the central door.’ Upāli said to him, “Well, then, my good gatekeeper, prepare seats in the hall of the middle gate.”

“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho dovāriko upālissa gahapatissa paṭissutvā majjhimāya dvārasālāya āsanāni paññapetvā yena upāli gahapati tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā upāliṁ gahapatiṁ etadavoca: ‘Yes, venerable sir,’ he replied, and after he had made seats ready in the hall of the central door, he returned to the householder Upāli and told him: “Yes, sir,” replied the gatekeeper. He did as he was asked, then returned to Upāli and said,

“paññattāni kho, bhante, majjhimāya dvārasālāya āsanāni. ‘Venerable sir, the seats are made ready in the hall of the cen-tral door. “Sir, seats have been prepared in the hall of the middle gate.

Yassadāni kālaṁ maññasī”ti. Now it is time to do as you think fit.’ Please go at your convenience.”

Atha kho upāli gahapati yena majjhimā dvārasālā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā yaṁ tattha āsanaṁ aggañca seṭṭhañca uttamañca paṇītañca tattha sāmaṁ nisīditvā dovārikaṁ āmantesi: Then the householder Upāli went to the hall of the central door, and he sat down on the highest and best, chief and most superior seat of all there. Then he told the doorkeeper: Then Upāli went to the hall of the middle gate, where he sat on the highest and finest seat. He addressed the gatekeeper,

“tena hi, samma dovārika, yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ evaṁ vadehi: ‘Now, good doorkeeper, go to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta and tell him: “Well then, my good gatekeeper, go to the Jain Ñātika and say to him:

‘upāli, bhante, gahapati evamāha—“Venerable sir, the householder Upāli says: ‘Sir, Upāli says

pavisa kira, bhante, sace ākaṅkhasī’”ti. ‘Enter, venerable sir, if, as it seems, you wish to.’”’ you may enter if you wish.’”

“Evaṁ, bhante”ti kho dovāriko upālissa gahapatissa paṭissutvā yena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: ‘Yes, venerable sir,’ he replied, and he went to the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta and told him: “Yes, sir,” replied the gatekeeper. He went to the Jain Ñātika and relayed what was said.

“upāli, bhante, gahapati evamāha: ‘Venerable sir, the householder Upāli says:

‘pavisa kira, bhante, sace ākaṅkhasī’”ti. “Enter, venerable sir, if, as it seems, you wish to.”’

Atha kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto mahatiyā nigaṇṭhaparisāya saddhiṁ yena majjhimā dvārasālā tenupasaṅkami. Then the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta went with the large assembly of Niganthas to the hall of the central door.Then the Jain Ñātika went to the hall of the middle gate together with a large following of Jain ascetics.

Atha kho upāli gahapati—Then whereas the householder Upāli had been used,

yaṁ sudaṁ pubbe yato passati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ disvāna tato paccuggantvā yaṁ tattha āsanaṁ aggañca seṭṭhañca uttamañca paṇītañca taṁ uttarāsaṅgena sammajjitvā pariggahetvā nisīdāpeti so—when he saw the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta coming in the distance, to go out to meet him and then after dusting with an upper robe the highest and best, chief and most superior seat of all there, seat him on it arranging the upper robe round him, he now being himself seated on the highest and best, chief and most superior seat, then told Nigaṇṭha Nātautta: ‘Venerable sir, there are seats; sit down if you wish.’Previously, when Upāli saw the Jain Ñātika coming, he would go out to greet him and, having wiped off the highest and finest seat with his upper robe, he would embrace him and sit him down.

dāni yaṁ tattha āsanaṁ aggañca seṭṭhañca uttamañca paṇītañca tattha sāmaṁ nisīditvā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: Then whereas the householder Upāli had been used, when he saw the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta coming in the distance, to go out to meet him and then after dusting with an upper robe the highest and best, chief and most superior seat of all there, seat him on it arranging the upper robe round him, he now being himself seated on the highest and best, chief and most superior seat, then told Nigaṇṭha Nātautta:But today, having seated himself on the highest and finest seat, he said to the Jain Ñātika,

“saṁvijjanti kho, bhante, āsanāni; ‘Venerable sir, there are seats;“There are seats, sir.

sace ākaṅkhasi, nisīdā”ti. sit down if you wish.’Please sit if you wish.”

Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto upāliṁ gahapatiṁ etadavoca: When this was said, the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta said:When he said this, the Jain Ñātika said to him:

“ummattosi tvaṁ, gahapati, dattosi tvaṁ, gahapati. ‘Householder, you are mad, you are imbecile;“You’re mad, householder! You’re a moron!

‘Gacchāmahaṁ, bhante, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropessāmī’ti gantvā mahatāsi vādasaṅghāṭena paṭimukko āgato. you go (saying): “Venerable sir, I shall prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong” and you come back all caught up in a vast net of theory.You said: ‘I’ll go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.’ But you come back caught in the vast net of his doctrine.

Seyyathāpi, gahapati, puriso aṇḍahārako gantvā ubbhatehi aṇḍehi āgaccheyya, seyyathā vā pana gahapati puriso akkhikahārako gantvā ubbhatehi akkhīhi āgaccheyya; Just as if a man went to castrate someone and came back castrated on both sides, as if a man went to put someone’s eyes out and came back with both his eyes put out;Suppose a man went to deliver a pair of testicles, but came back castrated. Or they went to deliver eyes, but came back blinded.

evameva kho tvaṁ, gahapati, ‘gacchāmahaṁ, bhante, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropessāmī’ti gantvā mahatāsi vādasaṅghāṭena paṭimukko āgato. so you too, householder, go (saying): “Venerable sir, I shall prove the monk Gotama’s theory wrong” and you come back all caught up in a vast net of theory.In the same way, you said: ‘I’ll go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.’ But you come back caught in the vast net of his doctrine.

Āvaṭṭosi kho tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇena gotamena āvaṭṭaniyā māyāyā”ti. Householder, you have been converted by the monk Gotama with his converting magic!’You’ve been converted by the ascetic Gotama’s conversion trick!”

“Bhaddikā, bhante, āvaṭṭanī māyā; ‘It is an auspicious converting magic, venerable sir,“Sir, this conversion trick is excellent.

kalyāṇī, bhante, āvaṭṭanī māyā; a good converting magic.This conversion trick is lovely!

piyā me, bhante, ñātisālohitā imāya āvaṭṭaniyā āvaṭṭeyyuṁ; piyānampi me assa ñātisālohitānaṁ dīgharattaṁ hitāya sukhāya; Venerable sir, were my beloved relatives and kin converted by this conversion, it would be long for their welfare and happiness.If my loved ones—relatives and kin—were to be converted by this, it would be for their lasting welfare and happiness.

sabbe cepi, bhante, khattiyā imāya āvaṭṭaniyā āvaṭṭeyyuṁ; sabbesānampissa khattiyānaṁ dīgharattaṁ hitāya sukhāya; sabbe cepi, bhante, brāhmaṇā …pe… vessā …pe… suddā imāya āvaṭṭaniyā āvaṭṭeyyuṁ; sabbesānampissa suddānaṁ dīgharattaṁ hitāya sukhāya; Were all those in the warrior-noble caste … the divine caste … the burgher caste … the artisan caste to be converted by this conversion, it would be long for their welfare and happiness.If all the aristocrats, brahmins, peasants, and menials were to be converted by this, it would be for their lasting welfare and happiness.

sadevako cepi, bhante, loko samārako sabrahmako sassamaṇabrāhmaṇī pajā sadevamanussā imāya āvaṭṭaniyā āvaṭṭeyyuṁ; sadevakassapissa lokassa samārakassa sabrahmakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya dīgharattaṁ hitāya sukhāyāti. Were the world with its gods, its Māras, and its (Brahma) Divinities, this generation with its monks and divines, with its kings and its men, to be converted by this conversion, it would be long for its welfare and happiness.If the whole world—with its gods, Māras, and divinities, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, gods and humans—were to be converted by this, it would be for their lasting welfare and happiness.

Tena hi, bhante, upamaṁ te karissāmi. As to which, venerable sir, I shall give you a simile;Well then, sir, I shall give you a simile.

Upamāyapidhekacce viññū purisā bhāsitassa atthaṁ ājānanti. for some wise men understand by means of a simile the meaning of what is said.For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said.

Bhūtapubbaṁ, bhante, aññatarassa brāhmaṇassa jiṇṇassa vuḍḍhassa mahallakassa daharā māṇavikā pajāpatī ahosi gabbhinī upavijaññā. ‘Venerable sir, there was once a divine who was old, aged and burdened with years, and his wife who was a young divine-caste girl was pregnant and near her confinement.Once upon a time, there was an old brahmin, elderly and senior. His wife was a young brahmin lady who was pregnant and about to give birth.

Atha kho, bhante, sā māṇavikā taṁ brāhmaṇaṁ etadavoca, Then she told him:Then she said to the brahmin,

‘gaccha tvaṁ, brāhmaṇa, āpaṇā makkaṭacchāpakaṁ kiṇitvā ānehi, yo me kumārakassa kīḷāpanako bhavissatī’ti. “Go, divine, and buy a young monkey in the market and bring it back to me as a playmate for my child.”‘Go, brahmin, buy a baby monkey from the market and bring it back so it can be a playmate for my child.’

Evaṁ vutte, so brāhmaṇo taṁ māṇavikaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, he replied:When she said this, the brahmin said to her,

‘āgamehi tāva, bhoti, yāva vijāyati. “Wait, madam, till you have borne the child;‘Wait, my dear, until you give birth.

Sace tvaṁ, bhoti, kumārakaṁ vijāyissasi, tassā te ahaṁ āpaṇā makkaṭacchāpakaṁ kiṇitvā ānessāmi, yo te kumārakassa kīḷāpanako bhavissati. if you bear a boy, then I will go the market and buy a young male monkey and bring it back to you as a playmate for your child;If your child is a boy, I’ll buy you a male monkey,

Sace pana tvaṁ, bhoti, kumārikaṁ vijāyissasi, tassā te ahaṁ āpaṇā makkaṭacchāpikaṁ kiṇitvā ānessāmi, yā te kumārikāya kīḷāpanikā bhavissatī’ti. but if you bear a girl, then I will go to the market and buy a young female monkey and bring it back to you as a playmate for your child.”but if it’s a girl, I’ll buy a female monkey.’

Dutiyampi kho, bhante, sā māṇavikā …pe… For the second time she made the same request and received the same answer.For a second time …

tatiyampi kho, bhante, sā māṇavikā taṁ brāhmaṇaṁ etadavoca: For the third time she made the same request.For a third time she said to the brahmin,

‘gaccha tvaṁ, brāhmaṇa, āpaṇā makkaṭacchāpakaṁ kiṇitvā ānehi, yo me kumārakassa kīḷāpanako bhavissatī’ti. ‘Go, brahmin, buy a baby monkey from the market and bring it back so it can be a playmate for my child.’

Atha kho, bhante, so brāhmaṇo tassā māṇavikāya sāratto paṭibaddhacitto āpaṇā makkaṭacchāpakaṁ kiṇitvā ānetvā taṁ māṇavikaṁ etadavoca: Then since he was in love with her and his mind bound, he went to the market and bought a young male monkey and brought it back, and he told her:Then that brahmin, because of his love for the brahmin lady, bought a male baby monkey at the market, brought it to her, and said,

‘ayaṁ te, bhoti, āpaṇā makkaṭacchāpako kiṇitvā ānīto, yo te kumārakassa kīḷāpanako bhavissatī’ti. “I have bought a young male monkey in the market and brought it back to you as a playmate for your child.”‘I’ve bought this male baby monkey for you so it can be a playmate for your child.’

Evaṁ vutte, bhante, sā māṇavikā taṁ brāhmaṇaṁ etadavoca: Then she told him:When he said this, she said to him,

‘gaccha tvaṁ, brāhmaṇa, imaṁ makkaṭacchāpakaṁ ādāya yena rattapāṇi rajakaputto tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā rattapāṇiṁ rajakaputtaṁ evaṁ vadehi—“Go, divine, take this young male monkey to Dyed-hand the dyer’s son and tell him:‘Go, brahmin, take this monkey to Rattapāṇi the dyer and say,

icchāmahaṁ, samma rattapāṇi, imaṁ makkaṭacchāpakaṁ pītāvalepanaṁ nāma raṅgajātaṁ rajitaṁ ākoṭitapaccākoṭitaṁ ubhatobhāgavimaṭṭhan’ti. “Good Dyed-hand, I want this young male monkey dyed the colour called ‘yellow-unguent’ and pounded and re-pounded and ironed on both sides.”“Worthy Rattapāṇi, I wish to have this monkey dyed the color of yellow greasepaint, pounded and re-pounded, and pressed on both sides.”’

Atha kho, bhante, so brāhmaṇo tassā māṇavikāya sāratto paṭibaddhacitto taṁ makkaṭacchāpakaṁ ādāya yena rattapāṇi rajakaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā rattapāṇiṁ rajakaputtaṁ etadavoca: Then, since he was in love with her and his mind bound, he took the young male monkey to Dyed-hand the dyer’s son and told him:Then that brahmin, because of his love for the brahmin lady, took the monkey to Rattapāṇi the dyer and said,

‘icchāmahaṁ, samma rattapāṇi, imaṁ makkaṭacchāpakaṁ pītāvalepanaṁ nāma raṅgajātaṁ rajitaṁ ākoṭitapaccākoṭitaṁ ubhatobhāgavimaṭṭhan’ti. “Good Dyed-hand, I want this young male monkey dyed the colour called ‘yellow-unguent’ and pounded and re-pounded and ironed on both sides.”‘Worthy Rattapāṇi, I wish to have this monkey dyed the color of yellow greasepaint, pounded and re-pounded, and pressed on both sides.’

Evaṁ vutte, bhante, rattapāṇi rajakaputto taṁ brāhmaṇaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, Dyed-hand the dyer’s son told him:When he said this, Rattapāṇi said to him,

‘ayaṁ kho te, bhante, makkaṭacchāpako raṅgakkhamo hi kho, no ākoṭanakkhamo, no vimajjanakkhamo’ti. “Venerable sir, this young male monkey of yours will suffer a dyeing but not a pounding or an ironing.”‘Sir, this monkey can endure a dying, but not a pounding or a pressing.’

Evameva kho, bhante, bālānaṁ nigaṇṭhānaṁ vādo raṅgakkhamo hi kho bālānaṁ no paṇḍitānaṁ, no anuyogakkhamo, no vimajjanakkhamo. So too, venerable sir, the theory of the foolish Nigaṇṭhas will suffer fools’ dyeing (with their delight in it) but not wise men’s; but it will not suffer testing or ironing out.”In the same way, the doctrine of the foolish Jains looks fine initially—for fools, not for the astute—but can’t endure being scrutinized or pressed.

Atha kho, bhante, so brāhmaṇo aparena samayena navaṁ dussayugaṁ ādāya yena rattapāṇi rajakaputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā rattapāṇiṁ rajakaputtaṁ etadavoca: And then, venerable sir, on another occasion that divine took a pair of new garments to Dyed-hand the dyer’s son and told him:Then some time later that brahmin took a new pair of garments to Rattapāṇi the dyer and said,

‘icchāmahaṁ, samma rattapāṇi, imaṁ navaṁ dussayugaṁ pītāvalepanaṁ nāma raṅgajātaṁ rajitaṁ ākoṭitapaccākoṭitaṁ ubhatobhāgavimaṭṭhan’ti. “Good Dyed-hand, I want this pair of new garments dyed the colour called ‘yellow-unguent’ and pounded and re-pounded and ironed on both sides.”‘Worthy Rattapāṇi, I wish to have this new pair of garments dyed the color of yellow greasepaint, pounded and re-pounded, and pressed on both sides.’

Evaṁ vutte, bhante, rattapāṇi rajakaputto taṁ brāhmaṇaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, Dyed-hand the dyer’s son told him:When he said this, Rattapāṇi said to him,

‘idaṁ kho te, bhante, navaṁ dussayugaṁ raṅgakkhamañceva ākoṭanakkhamañca vimajjanakkhamañcā’ti. “Venerable sir, this pair of new garments of yours will suffer dyeing and it will suffer a pounding and an ironing.”‘Sir, this pair of garments can endure a dying, a pounding, and a pressing.’

Evameva kho, bhante, tassa bhagavato vādo arahato sammāsambuddhassa raṅgakkhamo ceva paṇḍitānaṁ no bālānaṁ, anuyogakkhamo ca vimajjanakkhamo cā”ti. So too, venerable sir, the theory of that Blessed One, Arahant and Fully Enlightened, will suffer wise men’s dyeing (with their delight in it), not fools’, and it will suffer both testing and ironing out.’In the same way, the doctrine of the Buddha looks fine initially—for the astute, not for fools—and it can endure being scrutinized and pressed.”

“Sarājikā kho, gahapati, parisā evaṁ jānāti: ‘Householder, the Assembly and the King know you thus:“Householder, the king and his retinue know you as

‘upāli gahapati nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa sāvako’ti. “The householder Upāli is a disciple of the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta.”a disciple of the Jain Ñātika.

Kassa taṁ, gahapati, sāvakaṁ dhāremā”ti? Whose disciple are you?’Whose disciple should we remember you as?”

Evaṁ vutte, upāli gahapati uṭṭhāyāsanā ekaṁsaṁ uttarāsaṅgaṁ karitvā yena bhagavā tenañjaliṁ paṇāmetvā nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca: When this was said, the householder Upāli rose from his seat, and arranging his upper robe on one shoulder, he extended his hands palms together towards where the Blessed One was, and he told the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta:When he had spoken, the householder Upāli rose from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, raised his cupped palms in the direction of the Buddha, and said to the Jain Ñātika,

“tena hi, bhante, suṇohi yassāhaṁ sāvako”ti: ‘In that case, venerable sir, hear whose disciple I am:“Well then, sir, hear whose disciple I am:

“Dhīrassa vigatamohassa, There is Wise One who has cast off delusion,The attentive one, free of delusion,

Pabhinnakhīlassa vijitavijayassa; his heart’s wildernesses abandoned, his victors vanquished,with hard-heartedness dissolved, victor in battle;

Anīghassa susamacittassa, He knows no anguish, he is quite even-minded,he’s untroubled and very even-minded,

Vuddhasīlassa sādhupaññassa; mature in virtue, with true understanding;with the virtue of an elder and the wisdom of a saint,

Vesamantarassa vimalassa, He is beyond temptation, and he is stainless:immaculate in the midst of it all: