Aṅguttara Nikāya 4.192

Translators: sujato

Numbered Discourses 4.192

20. Mahāvagga
20. The Great Chapter

Ṭhānasutta

Facts

“Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, ṭhānāni catūhi ṭhānehi veditabbāni.
“Mendicants, these four things can be known in four situations.

Katamāni cattāri?
What four?

Saṁvāsena, bhikkhave, sīlaṁ veditabbaṁ, tañca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññena.
You can get to know a person’s ethics by living with them. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.

Saṁvohārena, bhikkhave, soceyyaṁ veditabbaṁ, tañca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññena.
You can get to know a person’s purity by dealing with them. …

Āpadāsu, bhikkhave, thāmo veditabbo, so ca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññena.
You can get to know a person’s resilience in times of trouble. …

Sākacchāya, bhikkhave, paññā veditabbā, sā ca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenāti.
You can get to know a person’s wisdom by discussion. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.

‘Saṁvāsena, bhikkhave, sīlaṁ veditabbaṁ, tañca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti,
‘You can get to know a person’s ethics by living with them. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.’

iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?
That’s what I said, but why did I say it?

Idha, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ saṁvasamāno evaṁ jānāti:
Take a person who’s living with someone else. They come to know:

‘dīgharattaṁ kho ayamāyasmā khaṇḍakārī chiddakārī sabalakārī kammāsakārī, na santatakārī na santatavutti;
‘For a long time this venerable’s deeds have been broken, tainted, spotty, and marred. Their deeds and behavior are inconsistent.

sīlesu dussīlo ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā sīlavā’ti.
This venerable is unethical, not ethical.’

Idha pana, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ saṁvasamāno evaṁ jānāti:
Take another person who’s living with someone else. They come to know:

‘dīgharattaṁ kho ayamāyasmā akhaṇḍakārī acchiddakārī asabalakārī akammāsakārī santatakārī santatavutti;
‘For a long time this venerable’s deeds have been intact, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred. Their deeds and behavior are consistent.

sīlesu sīlavā ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā dussīlo’ti.
This venerable is ethical, not unethical.’

‘Saṁvāsena, bhikkhave, sīlaṁ veditabbaṁ, tañca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti, iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.
That’s why I said that you can get to know a person’s ethics by living with them. But only after a long time, not a short time; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.

‘Saṁvohārena, bhikkhave, soceyyaṁ veditabbaṁ, tañca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti,
‘You can get to know a person’s purity by dealing with them. …’

iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?
That’s what I said, but why did I say it?

Idha, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ saṁvoharamāno evaṁ jānāti:
Take a person who has dealings with someone else. They come to know:

‘aññathā kho ayamāyasmā ekena eko voharati, aññathā dvīhi, aññathā tīhi, aññathā sambahulehi;
‘This venerable deals with one person in one way. Then they deal with two, three, or many people each in different ways.

vokkamati ayamāyasmā purimavohārā pacchimavohāraṁ;
They’re not consistent from one deal to the next.

aparisuddhavohāro ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā parisuddhavohāro’ti.
This venerable’s dealings are impure, not pure.’

Idha pana, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ saṁvoharamāno evaṁ jānāti:
Take another person who has dealings with someone else. They come to know:

‘yatheva kho ayamāyasmā ekena eko voharati, tathā dvīhi, tathā tīhi, tathā sambahulehi.
‘This venerable deals with one person in one way. Then they deal with two, three, or many people each in the same way.

Nāyamāyasmā vokkamati purimavohārā pacchimavohāraṁ;
They’re consistent from one deal to the next.

parisuddhavohāro ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā aparisuddhavohāro’ti.
This venerable’s dealings are pure, not impure.’

‘Saṁvohārena, bhikkhave, soceyyaṁ veditabbaṁ, tañca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti, iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.
That’s why I said that you can get to know a person’s purity by dealing with them. …

‘Āpadāsu, bhikkhave, thāmo veditabbo, so ca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti,
‘You can get to know a person’s resilience in times of trouble. …’

iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?
That’s what I said, but why did I say it?

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco ñātibyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno, bhogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno, rogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno na iti paṭisañcikkhati:
Take a person who experiences loss of family, wealth, or health. But they don’t reflect:

‘tathābhūto kho ayaṁ lokasannivāso tathābhūto ayaṁ attabhāvapaṭilābho yathābhūte lokasannivāse yathābhūte attabhāvapaṭilābhe aṭṭha lokadhammā lokaṁ anuparivattanti loko ca aṭṭha lokadhamme anuparivattati—
‘Worldly life is like that. Reincarnation in a life-form is like that. That’s why the eight worldly conditions revolve around the world, and the world revolves around the eight worldly conditions:

lābho ca, alābho ca, yaso ca, ayaso ca, nindā ca, pasaṁsā ca, sukhañca, dukkhañcā’ti.
gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, pleasure and pain.’

So ñātibyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno bhogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno rogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno socati kilamati paridevati, urattāḷiṁ kandati, sammohaṁ āpajjati.
They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion.

Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco ñātibyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno bhogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno rogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno iti paṭisañcikkhati:
Take another person who experiences loss of family, wealth, or health. But they reflect:

lābho ca, alābho ca, yaso ca, ayaso ca, nindā ca, pasaṁsā ca, sukhañca, dukkhañcā’ti.
gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, pleasure and pain.’

So ñātibyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno bhogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno rogabyasanena vā phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati, na urattāḷiṁ kandati, na sammohaṁ āpajjati.
They don’t sorrow or wail or lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion.

‘Āpadāsu, bhikkhave, thāmo veditabbo, so ca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti,
That’s why I said that you can get to know a person’s resilience in times of trouble. …

iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.

‘Sākacchāya, bhikkhave, paññā veditabbā, sā ca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti,
‘You can get to know a person’s wisdom by discussion. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.’

iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?
That’s what I said, but why did I say it?

Idha, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ sākacchāyamāno evaṁ jānāti:
Take a person who is discussing with someone else. They come to know:

‘yathā kho imassa āyasmato ummaggo yathā ca abhinīhāro yathā ca pañhāsamudāhāro, duppañño ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā paññavā.
‘Judging by this venerable’s approach, by what they’re getting at, and by how they discuss a question, they’re witless, not wise.

Taṁ kissa hetu?
Why is that?

Tathā hi ayamāyasmā na ceva gambhīraṁ atthapadaṁ udāharati santaṁ paṇītaṁ atakkāvacaraṁ nipuṇaṁ paṇḍitavedanīyaṁ.
This venerable does not bring up a deep and meaningful saying that is peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.

Yañca ayamāyasmā dhammaṁ bhāsati tassa ca nappaṭibalo saṅkhittena vā vitthārena vā atthaṁ ācikkhituṁ desetuṁ paññāpetuṁ paṭṭhapetuṁ vivarituṁ vibhajituṁ uttānīkātuṁ.
When this venerable speaks on Dhamma they’re not able to explain the meaning, either briefly or in detail. They can’t teach it, assert it, establish it, clarify it, analyze it, or reveal it.

Duppañño ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā paññavā’ti.
This venerable is witless, not wise.’

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, cakkhumā puriso udakarahadassa tīre ṭhito passeyya parittaṁ macchaṁ ummujjamānaṁ.
Suppose a person with clear eyes was standing on the bank of a lake. They’d see a little fish rising,

Tassa evamassa:
and think:

‘yathā kho imassa macchassa ummaggo yathā ca ūmighāto yathā ca vegāyitattaṁ, paritto ayaṁ maccho, nāyaṁ maccho mahanto’ti.
‘Judging by this fish’s approach, by the ripples it makes, and by its force, it’s a little fish, not a big one.’

Evamevaṁ kho, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ sākacchāyamāno evaṁ jānāti:
In the same way, a person who is discussing with someone else would come to know:

Taṁ kissa hetu?

Tathā hi ayamāyasmā na ceva gambhīraṁ atthapadaṁ udāharati santaṁ paṇītaṁ atakkāvacaraṁ nipuṇaṁ paṇḍitavedanīyaṁ.

Yañca ayamāyasmā dhammaṁ bhāsati, tassa ca na paṭibalo saṅkhittena vā vitthārena vā atthaṁ ācikkhituṁ desetuṁ paññāpetuṁ paṭṭhapetuṁ vivarituṁ vibhajituṁ uttānīkātuṁ.

Duppañño ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā paññavā’ti.

Idha pana, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ sākacchāyamāno evaṁ jānāti:
Take another person who is discussing with someone else. They come to know:

‘yathā kho imassa āyasmato ummaggo yathā ca abhinīhāro yathā ca pañhāsamudāhāro, paññavā ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā duppañño.
‘Judging by this venerable’s approach, by what they’re getting at, and by how they discuss a question, they’re wise, not witless.

Taṁ kissa hetu?
Why is that?

Tathā hi ayamāyasmā gambhīrañceva atthapadaṁ udāharati santaṁ paṇītaṁ atakkāvacaraṁ nipuṇaṁ paṇḍitavedanīyaṁ.
This venerable brings up a deep and meaningful saying that is peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.

Yañca ayamāyasmā dhammaṁ bhāsati, tassa ca paṭibalo saṅkhittena vā vitthārena vā atthaṁ ācikkhituṁ desetuṁ paññāpetuṁ paṭṭhapetuṁ vivarituṁ vibhajituṁ uttānīkātuṁ.
When this venerable speaks on Dhamma they’re able to explain the meaning, either briefly or in detail. They teach it, assert it, establish it, clarify it, analyze it, and reveal it.

Paññavā ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā duppañño’ti.
This venerable is wise, not witless.’

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, cakkhumā puriso udakarahadassa tīre ṭhito passeyya mahantaṁ macchaṁ ummujjamānaṁ.
Suppose a man with clear eyes was standing on the bank of a lake. He’d see a big fish rising,

Tassa evamassa:
and think:

‘yathā kho imassa macchassa ummaggo yathā ca ūmighāto yathā ca vegāyitattaṁ, mahanto ayaṁ maccho, nāyaṁ maccho paritto’ti.
‘Judging by this fish’s approach, by the ripples it makes, and by its force, it’s a big fish, not a little one.’

Evamevaṁ kho, bhikkhave, puggalo puggalena saddhiṁ sākacchāyamāno evaṁ jānāti:
In the same way, a person who is discussing with someone else would come to know:

Taṁ kissa hetu?

Tathā hi ayamāyasmā gambhīrañceva atthapadaṁ udāharati santaṁ paṇītaṁ atakkāvacaraṁ nipuṇaṁ paṇḍitavedanīyaṁ.

Yañca ayamāyasmā dhammaṁ bhāsati, tassa ca paṭibalo saṅkhittena vā vitthārena vā atthaṁ ācikkhituṁ desetuṁ paññāpetuṁ paṭṭhapetuṁ vivarituṁ vibhajituṁ uttānīkātuṁ.

Paññavā ayamāyasmā, nāyamāyasmā duppañño’ti.

‘Sākacchāya, bhikkhave, paññā veditabbā, sā ca kho dīghena addhunā, na ittaraṁ; manasikarotā, no amanasikarotā; paññavatā, no duppaññenā’ti, iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.
That’s why I said that you can get to know a person’s wisdom by discussion. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.

Imāni kho, bhikkhave, cattāri ṭhānāni imehi catūhi ṭhānehi veditabbānī”ti.
These are the four things that can be known in four situations.”

Dutiyaṁ.