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6. Vedagūpañha

Question on the Experiencer

Rājā āha—
The king asked:

“bhante nāgasena, vedagū upalabbhatī”ti?
“Venerable Nāgasena, is an experiencer to be found?”

“Ko panesa, mahārāja, vedagū nāmā”ti?
“But what then is this thing called an experiencer?”

“Yo, bhante, abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, sotena saddaṁ suṇāti, ghānena gandhaṁ ghāyati, jivhāya rasaṁ sāyati, kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusati, manasā dhammaṁ vijānāti, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena passeyyāma.
“That soul within, venerable sir, that sees a form with the eye, hears a sound with the ear, smells an odour with the nose, tastes a flavour with the tongue, touches a tangible with the body, and knows a thought with the mind, just as we, seated here in the palace, might look out of whichever window we wish to look out of – whether that be the east, the west, the north, or the south window.

Evameva kho, bhante, ayaṁ abbhantare jīvo yena yena dvārena icchati passituṁ, tena tena dvārena passatī”ti.
Even so, venerable sir, this soul within looks out of whatever door it wishes to look out of.”

Thero āha—
The elder said:

“pañcadvāraṁ, mahārāja, bhaṇissāmi, taṁ suṇohi, sādhukaṁ manasikarohi, yadi abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, evametena abbhantare jīvena sotenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, ghānenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, kāyenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, manasāpi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ;
“I will talk to you, your majesty, about the five doors. Listen to this and pay careful attention. If the soul within sees form with the eye, just as we, sitting here in the palace can see material form through whatever window we wish to look through, whether through the east, the west, the north, or the south window, could a material form be seen by this soul within by means of the ear, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the body, or by the mind?

cakkhunāpi saddoyeva sotabbo, ghānenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, jivhāyapi saddoyeva sotabbo, kāyenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, manasāpi saddoyeva sotabbo;
And could a sound be heard by means of the eye, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the body, or by the mind?

cakkhunāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, sotenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, jivhāyapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, kāyenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, manasāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo;
And could an odour be smelled by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the tongue, or by the body, or by the mind?

cakkhunāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, sotenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, ghānenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, kāyenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, manasāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo;
And could a flavour be tasted by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the nose, or by the body, or by the mind?

cakkhunāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, sotenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, ghānenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, manasāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ;
And could a tangible be felt by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the mind?

cakkhunāpi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, sotenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, ghānenapi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, kāyenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabban”ti?
And could a thought be known by means of the eye, or by the ear, or by the nose, or by the tongue, or by the body?

“Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā imesu jālavātapānesu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena bahimukhā suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passāma, evametena abbhantare jīvenāpi cakkhudvāresu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passitabbaṁ, sotesu ugghāṭitesu … ghāne ugghāṭite … jivhāya ugghāṭitāya … kāye ugghāṭite mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ saddo sotabbo, gandho ghāyitabbo, raso sāyitabbo, phoṭṭhabbo phusitabbo”ti?
“The latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter. Just as, your majesty, when these grilled windows are removed, we seated here in the palace, looking outward, see form more clearly through great space, would the soul within see form more clearly through great space when the doors of the eyes have been removed? ... when the ears have been removed? ... when the nose has been removed? ... when the tongue has been removed? And would it feel a tangible more clearly when the body has been removed?”

“Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito’”ti?
“The latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter. Just as if, your majesty, this Dinna were to depart and stand in the entrance way outside the door, would you know ‘this Dinna has departed and is standing in the entrance way outside the door’?”

“Āma, bhante, jānāmī”ti.
“Yes, venerable sir, I would know.”

“Yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā tava purato tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā mama purato ṭhito’”ti?
And then, just as if, your majesty, this Dinna were to come back inside and stand in front of you, would you know ‘this Dinna has come back inside and is standing in front of me’?”

“Āma, bhante, jānāmī”ti.
“Yes, venerable sir, I would know.”

“Evameva kho, mahārāja, abbhantare so jīvo jivhāya rase nikkhitte jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti?
“In the same way, your majesty, when a flavour is placed on the tongue, would the soul within know whether it’s essence were sour, salty, bitter, pungent, astringent, or sweet?”

“Āma, bhante, jāneyyā”ti.
“Yes, venerable sir, it would know.”

“Te rase anto paviṭṭhe jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti.
“And when it has gone from your tongue into your inside would it know whether it’s essence were sour, salty, bitter, pungent, astringent, or sweet?”

“Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā, mahārāja, kocideva puriso madhughaṭasataṁ āharāpetvā madhudoṇiṁ pūrāpetvā purisassa mukhaṁ pidahitvā madhudoṇiyā pakkhipeyya, jāneyya, mahārāja, so puriso madhuṁ sampannaṁ vā na sampannaṁ vā”ti?
“The latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter. Just as if, your majesty, some person or other might fetch a hundred pots of honey, fill a large trough with this honey, cover the mouth of a man, and throw him into the trough of honey, would that man know whether the honey were sweet or not?”

“Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Kena kāraṇenā”ti?
“For what reason?”

“Na hi tassa, bhante, mukhe madhu paviṭṭhan”ti.
“Because, venerable sir, the honey has not entered his mouth.”

“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā puriman”ti.
“The latter is not fitted to the former, your majesty, nor the former to the latter.

“Nāhaṁ paṭibalo tayā vādinā saddhiṁ sallapituṁ;
“I am not competent to converse with you, a debater of the doctrine.

sādhu, bhante, atthaṁ jappehī”ti.
It would be good, venerable sir, if you told me the meaning.”

Thero abhidhammasaṁyuttāya kathāya rājānaṁ milindaṁ saññāpesi—
The elder instructed King Milinda with a talk connected with Abhidhamma.

“idha, mahārāja, cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhati, sotañca paṭicca sadde ca …pe…
“Here, your majesty, dependent on the eye and form, eye consciousness arises, and from the coming together of that there is contact, feeling, perception, volition, one-pointedness, the life faculty, and attention. Thus, these things are produced from conditions, and no experiencer is found here. Dependent on the ear and sounds …

manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhatī”ti.
dependent on the mind and thoughts, mind consciousness arises, and from the coming together of that there is contact, feeling, perception, volition, one-pointedness, the life faculty, and attention. Thus, these things are produced from conditions, and no experiencer is found here.”

“Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā”ti.
“You are clever, venerable Nāgasena.”

Vedagūpañho chaṭṭho.
Question on the Experiencer sixth