Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.8
Translators: sujato
Linked Discourses 44.8
1. Abyākatavagga
1. The Undeclared Points
Vacchagottasutta
With Vacchagotta
Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:
“kiṁ nu kho, bho gotama, sassato loko”ti?
“Mister Gotama, is this right: ‘the cosmos is eternal’?”
“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, vaccha, mayā: ‘sassato loko’ti …pe….
“This has not been declared by me, Vaccha.” …
“Kiṁ pana, bho gotama, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti?
“Then is this right: ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death’?”
“Etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṁ mayā:
“This too has not been declared by me.”
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.
“Ko nu kho, bho gotama, hetu, ko paccayo, yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
“What’s the cause, Mister Gotama, what’s the reason why, when the wanderers of other religions are asked these questions, they declare one of these to be true?
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā?
Ko pana, bho gotama, hetu, ko paccayo, yena bhoto gotamassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
And what’s the reason why, when Mister Gotama is asked these questions, he does not declare one of these to be true?”
‘sassato loko’tipi …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti?
“Aññatitthiyā kho, vaccha, paribbājakā rūpaṁ attato samanupassanti, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā rūpaṁ, rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
“Vaccha, the wanderers of other religions regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
Vedanaṁ attato samanupassanti …pe…
They regard feeling …
saññaṁ …pe…
perception …
saṅkhāre …pe…
choices …
viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassanti, viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness.
Tasmā aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
That’s why they answer these questions when asked.
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā.
Tathāgato ca kho, vaccha, arahaṁ sammāsambuddho na rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā rūpaṁ, na rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
The Realized One doesn’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
Na vedanaṁ attato samanupassati …pe…
He doesn’t regard feeling …
na saññaṁ …pe…
perception …
na saṅkhāre …pe…
choices …
na viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā viññāṇaṁ, na viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness.
Tasmā tathāgatassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
That’s why he doesn’t answer these questions when asked.”
‘sassato loko’tipi …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti.
Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako uṭṭhāyāsanā yenāyasmā mahāmoggallāno tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā mahāmoggallānena saddhiṁ sammodi.
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta got up from his seat and went to Venerable Mahāmoggallāna, and exchanged greetings with him.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako āyasmantaṁ mahāmoggallānaṁ etadavoca:
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. He asked Mahāmoggallāna the same questions, and received the same answers.
“kiṁ nu kho, bho moggallāna, sassato loko”ti?
“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, vaccha, bhagavatā: ‘sassato loko’ti …pe….
“Kiṁ pana, bho moggallāna, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti?
“Etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṁ bhagavatā:
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.
“Ko nu kho, bho moggallāna, hetu, ko paccayo, yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā?
Ko pana, bho moggallāna, hetu, ko paccayo yena samaṇassa gotamassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’tipi …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti?
“Aññatitthiyā kho, vaccha, paribbājakā rūpaṁ attato samanupassanti, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā rūpaṁ, rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Vedanaṁ attato samanupassanti …pe…
saññaṁ …pe…
saṅkhāre …pe…
viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassanti, viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Tasmā aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ evaṁ puṭṭhānaṁ evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’ti vā …pe…
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā.
Tathāgato ca kho, vaccha, arahaṁ sammāsambuddho na rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā rūpaṁ, na rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Na vedanaṁ attato samanupassati …pe…
na saññaṁ …pe…
na saṅkhāre …pe…
na viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, na attani vā viññāṇaṁ, na viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.
Tasmā tathāgatassa evaṁ puṭṭhassa na evaṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ hoti:
‘sassato loko’tipi, ‘asassato loko’tipi, ‘antavā loko’tipi, ‘anantavā loko’tipi, ‘taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīran’tipi, ‘aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīran’tipi, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipī”ti.
“Acchariyaṁ, bho moggallāna, abbhutaṁ, bho moggallāna.
He said, “It’s incredible, Mister Moggallāna, it’s amazing.
Yatra hi nāma satthu ca sāvakassa ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati, yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.
How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!
Idānāhaṁ, bho moggallāna, samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ upasaṅkamitvā etamatthaṁ apucchiṁ.
Just now I went to the ascetic Gotama and asked him about this matter.
Samaṇopi me gotamo etehi padehi etehi byañjanehi etamatthaṁ byākāsi, seyyathāpi bhavaṁ moggallāno.
And he explained it to me with these words and phrases, just like Mister Moggallāna.
Acchariyaṁ, bho moggallāna, abbhutaṁ, bho moggallāna.
It’s incredible, Mister Moggallāna, it’s amazing!
Yatra hi nāma satthu ca sāvakassa ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati samessati na virodhayissati, yadidaṁ aggapadasmin”ti.
How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!”
Aṭṭhamaṁ.