sutta » sn » sn44 » Saṁyutta Nikāya 44.9

Kutūhalasālāsutta

The Debating Hall

Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him.

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:

“Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi:
“Mister Gotama, a few days ago several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who follow various other religions were sitting together in the debating hall, and this discussion came up among them:

‘ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.

Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
When a disciple passes away, he declares that

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo …pe…
This bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla …

ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto …pe…
the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan …

ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto …pe…
Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta …

ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno …pe…
Pakudha Kaccāyana …

ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
Ajita of the hair blanket leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.

Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
When a disciple passes away, he declares that

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that

“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”’ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
This ascetic Gotama leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.

Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
When a disciple passes away, he declares that

‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti:
But as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he doesn’t declare that

‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Api ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti:
Rather, he declares that they have

‘acchecchi taṇhaṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā’ti.
cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit have made an end of suffering.’

Tassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā:
I had doubt and uncertainty about that:

‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’”ti?
‘How on earth can I understand the ascetic Gotama’s teaching?’”

“Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhituṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ.
“Vaccha, no wonder you’re doubting and uncertain.

Kaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā.
Doubt has come up in you about an uncertain matter.

Saupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa.
I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.

Seyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno;
It’s like a fire which only burns with fuel, not without fuel.

evameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā”ti.
In the same way I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.”

“Yasmiṁ, bho gotama, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?
“But when a flame is blown away by the wind, what does Mister Gotama say is its fuel then?”

“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi.
“At such a time, I say that it’s fueled by wind.

Vāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.
For the wind is its fuel then.”

“Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?
“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does Mister Gotama say is their fuel then?”

“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi.
“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.

Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.
For craving is their fuel then.”

Navamaṁ.